User talk:Graham grove/Archive 1

Hi Graham, How are you? I am wondering if we should try to change our domain name to WikiChristian.org and forward the wikichristian.com to that domain since it makes more sense since we want to keep it a non-commercial project. We can also consider registering a not for profit organization as we grow. Please share your thoughts on this. We already have both the domains with us. Thanks. -Prab

Hi Prab, Sure. I don't really know what the difference between .com and .org is - but if you think there is a good reason for the change, go for it. --Graham

Hi Graham. I'm glad you're working here. This idea of a Christian wiki has a lot of potential. --DavidCary 22:15, 8 Mar 2005 (PST)

Thanks David --Graham

You're welcome. Yes, I would like to contribute. I'm glad WikiChristian and the Compass wiki are getting along so well. --DavidCary 18:00, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)

Hi Graham, Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with all the lyrics. In order to better organize the information in the wiki, it is a good idea to categorize the pages so that the system automatically creates alphabetical lists. All we have to do is to type [[Category:type]] at the bottom of the page. For example, the songs category pages should have [[category:songs]]. Also, there are some dead end pages that do not have any link and the best way to avoid creating dead end pages is by categories and templates. To create a new template, just type {{template name}} and edit the template page with the link created. Thanks for the understanding. --User:Prab

Hi Prab, Yep - it's a good idea to use templates and categories. Makes sense to me. However, I still like to have the index and contents pages under the control of the users rather than at the mercy of an automated system. Thanks --Graham

Hi Graham, Thanks for the message in my user page. I think we can do both. Actually, the system does a good job in organizing the info alphabetically but giving the control to the users as well makes sense and we will continue both. Thanks. -Prab

Hello, Graham. Thank you for the warm welcome to WikiChristian. As a United Methodist, I suspect I'll be making lots of Wesleyan-type edits but hope to add significantly to the encyclopedia in a number of categories. Good to be a part of the community! Shalom! KHM03 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)

Song Styleguide

I'd like to draw your attention to this talk page, Graham, WikiChristian talk:Song styleguide. I've made a pretty signigicant change to the titles of the songs and lyrics and hope to promote a single style for the titles. --Mustaphile 11:06, 8 May 2005 (PDT)

found your picture

Found your picture on your website

Good to put a face to the name. File:Big grin.gif

--Mustaphile 20:57, 22 May 2005 (PDT)

writing in first person

Hi Graham (my name also happens to be Graham), I was just reading through some of the articles and I notice that frequently in the articles you write you use first person voice liberally. Not that I object to this in general, it's definitely a great tool for communicating Christian truth. However, since this is an Encyclopedia, perhaps we should consider using a more objective (third person) voice as much as possible? In articles and opinions, of course, first person is entirely acceptable. But in the more historical and factual entries, I wonder whether the first person voice comes off as scholarly or merely as "preachy," thus turning off potential believers and causing WikiChristian to be viewed as "just another evangelist website." Again, not that I object to your writing style in general, I think you're doing a great thing by devoting so much of your time to this project! Avertist 09:07, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Hi Avertis. I've really enjoyed learning from your articles. You're doing a great job.

It's quite true that I do write opinions often. I try to make it clear that it is an opinion - which is why I write my name next to the article - so that a user can skip stuff I write if they don't want to read opinions, or so they can click on my name and read my background and understand my biases. You're also right in saying that using the first person doesn't always come off as scholarly. But when discussing Christianity, does it always have to be scholarly? Can experience or a testimony or even just a gut feeling be as worthwhile?

I guess I disagree with you on one point. You say that this is an Encyclopedia. My hope is that this is not only an encyclopedia - if it were only an encyclopedia then why not just write in Wikipedia? I hope this is a place where people can write their views and opinions including their understanding of history. The way I am going to write about about the Reformation is probably going to be quite different than the way a Roman Catholic would write about the Reformation, or again different from the way an atheist would write about it. Although there are historical facts involved, I think there will usually be a slant in one direction or another. I think it is best to allow multiple articles on the history of the reformation (or any other topic). Perhaps there should be the main article that is dry and factual only, but I think it is fine also for there to be lots of other articles which tend to have a slant in one way or another. Sometimes that will be "preachy" but hopefully at least it will be open for dialogue, discussion and rebuttal. I also don't think making this a purely factual Encyclopedia is likely to help brng people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd be interested to know if anyone has been significantly drawn to Jesus by looking up information about Christianity on wikipedia.

If you look at the baptism page you'll see that I've written an article there which is clearly my own opinion. Obviously there will be people who have different opinions on this topic. I think it would be great if other people add links for new articles where they can explain their alternate views. Even the writer of Easton's Bible Dictionary is pretty biased (and this is supposed to be a dictionary which I would imagine shouldn't be biased). If you read Bible Dictionary: Baptism you'll see that there is clearly a particular point being pushed.

What you say is important though. I shouldn't be writing things that turn people away from Christ - I guess what I want to do is write things that say what I believe and challenge people to think about what they believe - be it the same or different from my belief. Sometimes I fail at that task. If you let me know which comments I make in which articles that are specifically preachy and that you think would really offend people, let me know and I'll try and fix them up. Your brother in Christ, --Graham Grove

Hi Graham, I worry that I may have overstated the problem in my first post. In the vast majority of your articles I don't see anything to worry about. But take, for instance, in the conclusion section of An overview of the main denominations and the history of the Christian Church (By G.G.). The rest of the article is mostly factual, but the conclusion is definitely composed mostly of opinion. It's an opinion I share completely, so I'm not objecting to the content of it, but it seems to me that the best place for that section would be in a separate article discussing your opinion on the unity of the Church, etc. And though it does not sound particularly preachy to me, I can almost guarantee you that some of my atheist/agnostic friends would read it as trying to "explain away" the "fact" that Christianity just "can't figure itself out," or something to that effect. Would minor reorganizations like this actually convert them? Probably not, but it would remove that small objection they may have.

I completely agree that Wikichristian should be much more than a dry encyclopedia; my concern is that the division between fact and opinion might become blurred if we are not careful about this. Avertist 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Thanks Avertis. I think you were quite right - that was out of place in an article that probably should have remained neutral and factual. I've moved my conclusion into a separate article. Thanks for the advice. --Graham Grove, 24 April

Hi Graham, I'm glad we agreed on this :). On a semi-related note, I thought more about what you said about wikipedia being the place for a "dry encyclopedia" and I thought that perhaps just to save time and effort, we could import articles en masse to wikichristian on historical and factual matters. Since wikipedia articles are generally pretty reliable, this way we'll be able to concentrate more of our efforts on dialogue and writing opinion articles (which I agree should be the core of wikichristian). Since you're one of the "main guys" here, I figured I'd ask your thoughts before I started doing it a bunch. But just so you can get an idea of what I mean, I imported the Arianism article from wikipedia on top of my old entry. As helpful as it is to me to write up my own short explanations of things, I think this would probably be more efficient and beneficial to wikichristian as a whole. I'm interested to know your thoughts. Avertist 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)

G'day Avertist. Go for it, transfer any articles you think a worth transferring. I've noticed sometimes that I've got to have my thinking hat on when reading articles from Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on Christianity, it has a list of famous Christians, one of whom is Joseph Smith. He's the founder of the Mormon religion, so I don't think it is accurate to say he is a famous Christian. Certainly he was a very influential man and a famous religious leader who has had a major impact in history, but I think most Christians would agree that he should be left off a list of famous Christians. In general though, like you've suggested, Wikipedia is pretty reliable and thorough, so go for it and transfer away. —unsigned comment by Graham grove (talk • contribs)

vandalism

I have noticed that you have some users who are constantly editing the articles to say nasty things. They switch words, screw up spelling so that links do not work, and seem to be somewhat of an annoyance. Is there any way to stop this? It may be that this is the downside to a website like this where users can freely edit each other's work. JordanBarrett 13:42, 28 July 2005 (PDT)

Yep, that tends to happen a lot. When Prab initially set up the site, that happened a lot and so we protected most of the pages so that only sysops could edit them. Then the vandalism stopped for a time and we unprotected most the pages. It seems to occur periodically again - and it only seems to be coming from one person. There probably is some way of stopping it, but I'm not an expert at wikis so I'm unfamiliar with how to stop it. I know the set up for Theopedia is that only people with user names can edit pages - perhaps that is the best way around the problem. You could talk to Prab about the problems if you want. --Graham

hello from User:Phatcat68

Hello Graham! I saw your message to check out this site and decided to do so. I went ahead and signed up as a user and added some churches that I know of in West Virginia. Thanks for the invitation! I will check out the pages you indicated as time permits! Thanks again! --Phatcat68 20:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

G'day and welcome Phatcat68. Thanks for adding to the directory of churches. Feel free to create and edit other articles if you want to. A while back we had a lot of trouble with vandalism (and the only way we could stop it and make the vandals go away was to protect all the pages). Hopefully most pages have now been unprotected and if we haven't unprotected them all it is only because of forgetfulness. If you find one that is protected, give me a yell, and I'll unprotect it. --Graham grove 22:28, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

hello from User:SWD316

Hi there Graham, Im SWD316. I created an account and user page! Thanks for the invintation here! I didn't see it until today. You put it in an archive on my Wikipedia page, coincidentally it was an archive of coversations I had with Phatcat68! Wierd. Anyways thanks for the invite! SWD316 (yes I have a user page; it just looks like a red link!)

Invitation to RWiki Yahoo Group

Dear Graham, I'd like to invite you to join the RWiki Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/. Here's my preliminary description of the group:

This group is an informal association of administrators of religiously-based wikis. Most of us are using MediaWiki, but administrators of other wiki engines are also invited to join.

We envision this as a low-volume list where administrators of religiously rooted wiki communities can trade tips and ideas, work together to fight spambots and vandals, and so on.

RWiki is sponsored by OrthodoxWiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org). It is open to wikis based in all "recognized" religious communities. This generally does not include NRMs or groups commonly described as "cults."

The archives of this list are kept private, and membership is restricted to those who genuinely qualify for this kind of group. Please apply with the name and URL of your wiki, as well as a description of your role in managing it.

Yours in Christ --John S. (User:FrJohn at http://orthodoxwiki.org)

vandalism in general

Hi, I am the creator of the new Bible encyclopedia wiki based in the United States called, Wikible. I noticed that this site is getting hammered all the time with spam. I was just curious what kind of spam protection you are using? I am using the Bad Behavior mediawiki extension at my site. Also, I've noticed this site is using a very old version of MediaWiki. perhaps a upgrade to the latest stable version, 1.5.6 (as of this post), would help curb that somewhat. As you know, spammers will try to use vulnerabilities in software to their advantage, and it would probably help to upgrade. Have a good day, and keep serving the savior! --Ymmotrojam 04:51, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)

Shorter URLs

Hi there. I recently responded to your "open letter". I'm starting to dig a little deeper into WikiChristian; I had been spending most of my time on Wikible.org. May I recommend this nifty tip to help clean up the wikichristian URLs? (I've also added this to Prab's talk page since he seems to be more technically-oriented.) --J. J. 18:21, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

Still watching

I got your comment on Wikipedia. Even though I'm not spending as much time here, I still check the "Recent changes" page frenquently to get a pulse on what's happening with the wiki. --J. J. 10:13, 8 August 2006 (PDT)

Thanks

Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?

God bless!
P.B. Pilhet / Talk 22:37, 21 October 2006 (EST)

Deletion of C.S. Lewis (overview)

Hey, Graham! Sorry if I shouldn't have deleted that page. Do you want me to undelete it, or will you do that, or what? I just figured that, since the overview page was actually smaller than the main page, it would just be easier to have it all on one page. I thought that if the article ever did get bigger, then the overview page could simply be created again. Otherwise, with the article as it is, an overview page seems, at least to me, to just take up database space and clutter up the article. But either way I won't delete any more overview pages again, if you guys don't want me to :-)

God bless!
P.B. Pilhet / Talk 17:09, 22 October 2006 (EST)

No problems. That's fine what you did. I think that your approach to delete the page was fine; we can always recreate it later if need be. I'd prefer you not to delete the overview articles, but I know that Tom has a different point of view. You do what you think is best. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different view points in Christianity, and at least the system with overviews allows for people to contribute either to the overview, or alternatively to create opinion style articles. --Graham grove 17:12, 22 October 2006 (EST)

Okay, Graham! I don't really like the overview system, but I'll leave it alone to be on the safe side.

God bless,
P.B. Pilhet / Talk 17:17, 22 October 2006 (EST)

Vandalism

Hey Graham. I don't mind the accidental block :-)

It seems to be pretty simple to change move permissions. Whoever has access to the server will have a file called LocalSettings.php. In that file, there's a section that looks like this:

$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createaccount'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['read'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['edit'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createtalk'] = true;

$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['move'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['read'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['edit'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createtalk'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload-shared'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['minoredit'] = true;


$wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['autoconfirmed'] = true;


$wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['bot'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['autoconfirmed'] = true;


$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['block'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createaccount'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['delete'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['deletedhistory'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['editinterface'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['import'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['importupload'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['move'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrol'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['protect'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['rollback'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['upload'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload-shared'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unwatchedpages'] = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true;


$wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['userrights'] = true;

I assume Prab is the only one with access to the server, so he just needs to change the bolded line from = true; to = false;. Since a lot of the vandalism is coming from the same people (I think), we might also want to install the Check User special extension, which will allow us to see which IP addresses an editor is using, so we can effectively ban him/her. -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 13:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)

done :-) --Tom 15:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)

I noticed that you blocked Dan McQueen. Just thought I'd tell you that I had already blocked him earlier :-) P.B. Pilhet / Talk 17:13, 29 November 2006 (EST)