Talk:Justification by faith alone (G.G.)

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Revision as of 08:00, 27 April 2010 by P.B. Pilhet (talk | contribs) (Yep)
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Historical note about selling indulgences

It's inaccurate to state that the Church sold "forgiveness for money". Indeed, a handful of corrupt priests had done so in efforts to raise money for the construction of Churches, financing the Crusades, and so forth. But often, when this information had reached the ears of Bishops, warrants for arrest of the offending priests were issued. Yes -- corruption existed in the Church. This is admitted fully. But the Church does not claim to be perfect in act, which would be absurd. It claims to be infallible only on questions of faith and morals; in other words, on questions of doctrine. The criminal actions of isolated individuals (who were condemned by the Church) do not speak against the Church as a whole.

-- Very respectfully, AmericanCatholic

I agree with AmericanCatholic's point... First, the Church was certainly not "selling forgiveness". Technically, some corrupt clergymen were selling indulgences, not forgiveness. An "indulgence" is when the Church, through the infinite merits of Jesus, grants a remittance from the temporal punishment due to a sin, the guilt of which has already been forgiven. In order to gain an indulgence for a sin, the sin must already be forgiven. An indulgence applies to the concept of Purgatory, not our eternal salvation. Second, the Church claims infallibility only in certain of its teachings, never its actions. The Church is, as AmericanCatholic pointed out, full of sinners too who sometimes make mistakes. I'm going to write an essay on Faith Plus Works (God willing), so I won't go into the finer points of Grove's arguments right now -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 20:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Faith without works is dead.

James 2:20, "...that faith without works is dead." ~Darth Stabro ~(Talk) 06:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep. "What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?" And also, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?" Luther tried to remove the Book of James from his German Bible translation - in the end, though, he couldn't justify it, so he stuck he epistle in his appendix instead. However, Luther did remove the deuterocanon from the Bible, because the Jews decided (long after Jesus came) not to include it in their canon. Apparently, even though the reformers claimed the Bible is the sole authority ("Sola Scriptura"), they felt like they had the authority to say what the Bible is! :P -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 08:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)